Steve Norell

• 08-27-2003 8:15 PM

  Tom Smee Joined on 08-27-2003 Toronto Posts 13	Steve Norell Reply Contact One of the best Ring recordings, I think, is by the Metropolitan Opera with Levine. Steve Norell is listed as playing contra on it. Does anyone know what instrument he uses? ================ Tom Smee

• 09-01-2003 4:48 PM

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  Schultz Joined on 03-08-2003 Rotterdam, Netherlands via Australia Posts 47	Re: Steve Norell Reply Contact To my knowledge Steve Norell didn't use a contra in that recording...nor does he ever....as i have been led to belive. The amazing sound you hear...( on yes one of the best recordings) is pure bass trombone. Amazing stuff isn't it! Cheers Schultz We came for the music, we stayed for the bears

• 09-01-2003 9:51 PM

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  Ed_Solomon Joined on 01-30-2003 London, UK Posts 352

  Re: Steve Norell Reply Contact Agreed, for a bass trombone it's pretty amazing, but it is very obvious to me at least that there is a bass trombone and not a contrabass trombone playing those parts due to the rather raspy sound of the pedal notes - and I do not want in any way to denigrate his playing, but that is something that you simply cannot avoid on a bass trombone. There is a certain quality of sound which the contrabass trombone lends to the ensemble that the bass trombone is in fact rather poor at imitating, especially in the lower reaches of its range. To my ear, it sounds more than a little crass at times, when if you compare this recording to the best of the Berlin PO, Vienna PO or Bayreuth Festspielorchester recordings, there is really a world of difference in the sound to those who know what to listen for. It surprises me somewhat that in most other opera houses in the world, when a production of Wagner's Ring is put on, they manage to use a real contrabass trombone, yet New York's Metropolitan Opera did not do so for what was undoubtedly a much-hyped, no-expense-spared Wagner extravaganza in every other respect. It is mildly disappointing, to say the least, especially when one considers the talent that was lined up for the major singing roles in the operas. __________________________________________ Edward Solomon British Trombone Society Webmaster webmaster@britishtrombonesociety.org http://www.britishtrombonesociety.org __________________________________________

• 09-02-2003 6:39 AM

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  Ben van Dijk Joined on 01-30-2003 Netherlands Posts 220

  Re: Steve Norell Reply Contact I have to agree with Ed totally on this, I know the recording and it is great but obvious there is no contra involved. I know there was no contra tradition in the USA as there is in Europe. I remember when I made a tour through the USA back in 1998 and played a recital at Julliard. Part of my recital was a contrabass presentation with students of Joe Alessi and Don Harwood. Members of the Met trombone section came to listen and Steve was also there. He loved the session and as I remember was convinced the Met also has to use a contra in the future. He tried out my contrabass, oved it but it was clear he had no experrience on a contrabass. I know the feeling very well when you play for the first time on one of these big beasts. I think the recordings of Levine are from before my presentation so I asume they will do real contrabass parts now on contrabass trombones. I sincerely hope because, as Ed says, it makes such an extra sound that is not possible on our normal basses. Compare the Boulez Ring with the Levine Ring and you know what I mean. Joachim Mittelacher played contrabass at that time in Bayreuth and he was just great on the contra. Don't misunderstand me, the section of the Met sounds great but not really in tradition! If you are interested in a Ring compilation with me on contrabass trombone I can recommend a Edo de Waart recording on RCA with my former orchestra, the Netherlands Radio Philharmonic. It is also a wonderful introduction to the Music of the Ring, no singers, just the most beautiful instrumental parts in only one hour. Richard Wagner, arr. Henk de Vlieger The Ring, an orchestral adventure Radio Filharmonisch Orkest Holland Edo de Waart RCA 74321 447842 Greetings, Ben van Dijk Rotterdam Philharmonic Rotterdam Conservatory Royal Northern College of Music Manchester ben@basstrombone.nl www.basstrombone.nl

• 09-08-2003 8:19 PM

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  Tom Smee Joined on 08-27-2003 Toronto Posts 13

  Re: Steve Norell Reply Contact Thanks for all the input. I guess I was misled by the liner notes which list SN as playing contra. It sounds quite huge for a normal bass trombone, but at the bass trombone pedal tones made me wonder (most of these notes are not pedals on the F contra and sound quite different). I does make you wonder about the Met, though. They wouldn't play the bass trumpet part on a trombone because of inconvenience, so why would they treat the contra part differently? Hopefully, someone from NYC will chime in with the Met section's current performance practice. Thanks. ================ Tom Smee

• 05-06-2004 1:56 PM

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  phillip Joined on 05-06-2004 Posts 21	Re: Steve Norell Reply Contact ...

• 10-21-2004 3:00 AM

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  BassBoneJoe Joined on 10-21-2004 Posts 4

  Norrell Reply Contact I'm going to first of all look at this from a composer's POV, as I am a comp. major. Wagner's writing in 4's- 4 flutes, oboes, etc. There are three trumpets and a bass trumpet, which sounds like a low trumpet, not a trombone. There are two tenor trombones, a bass trombone, and a contrabass trombone. Then there's a tuba, really the only instrument not in such a group. If the bass trumpet should sound like a low trumpet, then why should the contrabass trombone sound like a tuba? I can't imagine what these instruments were like in Wagner's day. The bass trombone has finally reached it's golden period (in my opinion anyway). For about 20-50 yrs. now there have been companies making consistently good instruments and the possibilities of the instrument have expanded greatly. After sitting next to Mr. Norrell in many lessons (I am also a bass trombone minor) and hearing the well played BBBb's coming out of his horn, this point I am convinced of. Even though my experience with the contrabass trombone is hardly any, what does seem apparent is that there are finally makers such as Thein and people such as Mr. van Dijk attempting to perfect the instrument. It seems to me that up until now it has not been developed as far as the standard orchestral bass trombone. It is obvious to me that Mr. Norrell has spent his entire life perfecting his bass trombone playing. If he can sound as amazing as he does one that MET recording I believe he has succeeded. Why should he feel the need to play the contrabass trombone? There are many people, including myself, who believe that the Trombone 4 part should sound like a trombone, and not a tuba. Here is where I believe it is just a matter of opinion. Just today I compared the Entry of the Gods recordings I have- MET and Vienna. To me there is no doubt in my mind that hardly any trombone player can play that better than Mr. Norrell. As to what he's playing- he stills plays a fantastic Bach 50B in most of my lessons with custom work done by someone in Cali who later became an accountant. I forget his name. Mr. Norrell still usually plays with rotors, and after several of my friends and I have had trouble with Thayers, I can see why. Now, I am going to default to what I have heard from other students. He ONLY plays the Y-613H when he has to play mostly sustained loud notes for most of the time. This is in my opinion Yamaha's finest bass bone, after trying out the line. I own one of the first one's produced, which is much better than the significantly cheaper ones produced now. I also own a Getzen Custom bass bone. He usually uses a different Bach when he's in the pit. I just saw it for the first time the other day when I had the chance to hear him live, so I can't say much about it except that it is a rotor horn. Another student told me he only uses Thayers in Gotterdamerung when he needs to "kill the orchestra". I believe he also has a Bartok horn with a spring loaded F attachment that he spent a summer producing. Joseph Trapanese Composer / Bass Trombonist joecomposer.com

• 10-21-2004 8:33 AM

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  Ed_Solomon Joined on 01-30-2003 London, UK Posts 352

  Re: Steve Norell Reply Contact Joe, I think you've missed the point. There's no question about whether or not the player is any good. The fact remains that Wagner scored the part for a contrabass trombone and not a bass trombone (except for a select few passages). There really is a clear difference in sound between a bass trombone and a contrabass trombone, just as there is a difference in timbre between an alto and a tenor or a tenor and a bass. If it is acceptable to perform Wagner's contrabass trombone parts on a bass trombone, then perhaps it shoud be equally acceptable to perform the Mozart Tuba Mirum on the alto trombone. After all, it is also a trombone that can play the same notes and cover the range required for that particular passage. The fact remains that most people would consider that to be as ludicrous as it sounds but maintain a set of double standards; when it comes to the contrabass trombone nobody cares. Perceptions can change, however. After about 1880, the alto trombone became obsolete and was gradually revived, particularly after World War II. Nowadays, it is considered inappropriate to use anything other than an alto trombone for the Mozart Requiem, for example. In a similar way, the contrabass trombone is now enjoying a revival. Hopefully more people will realise its potential and reverse the perception that it is acceptable to use another instrument to cover the part (e.g. a tuba or a bass trombone). __________________________________________ Edward Solomon British Trombone Society Webmaster webmaster@britishtrombonesociety.org http://www.britishtrombonesociety.org __________________________________________

• 10-21-2004 9:49 AM

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  johnnym Joined on 01-30-2003 Passau, Germany Posts 176

  Re: Norrell Reply Contact BassBoneJoe: I'm going to first of all look at this from a composer's POV, as I am a comp. major. Wagner's writing in 4's- 4 flutes, oboes, etc. There are three trumpets and a bass trumpet, which sounds like a low trumpet, not a trombone. There are two tenor trombones, a bass trombone, and a contrabass trombone. Then there's a tuba, really the only instrument not in such a group. If the bass trumpet should sound like a low trumpet, then why should the contrabass trombone sound like a tuba? Joe, Believe me there is a distinct difference in sound between contrabass trombone and tuba. The contra sounds like a trombone to me at all. And, the tuba also serves the function of a bottom instrument. In this case for the horn/wagnerian tuba section. Johannes Art is the window through which one gains a glimpse of the soul of the artist... The bass trombone is no weapon!

• 10-21-2004 5:45 PM

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  BassBoneJoe Joined on 10-21-2004 Posts 4

  Steve Norrell Reply Contact Most players I know play the 1st parts of Beethoven 5 and the Mozart Requiem on a tenor trombone because of the instrument's improved capabilities since the composer's time. If the lead player is playing an alto, why shouldn't the tenor player then use a small bore straight trombone? And shouldn't the bass player then also use a straight horn pitched in F? The fact of the matter is that the instruments we use today are far superior to those in the 18th and 19th centuries. If the player is capable of playing the same music on their modern instrument with the ability to make it sound fantastic, it is a matter of their opinion whether or not to use a different instrument. After speaking to Mr. Norrell recently, he does not enjoy the sound quality of the contrabass trombones he has heard, so he plays the Ring on a bass trombone because he can, and it sounds great. It all boils down to opinion from here. Joseph Trapanese Composer / Bass Trombonist joecomposer.com

• 10-21-2004 10:10 PM

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  Ed_Solomon Joined on 01-30-2003 London, UK Posts 352

  Re: Steve Norrell Reply Contact BassBoneJoe: Most players I know play the 1st parts of Beethoven 5 and the Mozart Requiem on a tenor trombone because of the instrument's improved capabilities since the composer's time. That may be true where you are, but I can assure you that I don't know a single trombonist in London (and I know many through running my own trombone ensemble and being the webmaster for the British Trombone Society) who would dare contemplate that. It's the sort of thing that has become considered musically unacceptable to do now, at least in Britain. I haven't ever seen a professional outfit in Europe (including the British Isles) do so. Besides, the capabilities of the tenor trombone have not changed since the composer's time in terms of the upward reach. It has always been capable of the upper range it possesses nowadays. It is a simple fact that the highest part was written for an alto trombone and on an alto trombone it should be played. BassBoneJoe: If the lead player is playing an alto, why shouldn't the tenor player then use a small bore straight trombone? And shouldn't the bass player then also use a straight horn pitched in F? With respect, that is beside the point, not to mention the fact that the F bass trombone did not even exist in Vienna in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, having been denied a place in the court orchestra as early as 1726, so the third trombone would most certainly have been a second B flat trombone playing in the middle and low registers. This is also quite clear from Mozart's style of scoring in Salzburg (F bass trombone) versus Vienna (B flat trombone), which is continued by the likes of Beethoven and Schubert, who generally scrupulously avoid notes below F and is also borne out by the treatise on trombone technique by Andreas Nemetz. BassBoneJoe: The fact of the matter is that the instruments we use today are far superior to those in the 18th and 19th centuries. If the player is capable of playing the same music on their modern instrument with the ability to make it sound fantastic, it is a matter of their opinion whether or not to use a different instrument. Sorry, but that simply is not true. In German orchestras, the bass trombonist (fourth trombonist) is required to double on the contrabass trombone and be completely proficient in performing on it. German orchestral trombone positions consist of a principal trombone (Soloposaune) doubling alto and tenor trombones, second trombone, third trombone (Wechselposaune) doubling tenor and bass trombones and fourth trombone (Ba�posaune) doubling bass and contrabass trombones. The doubling is mandatory and not dictated by the desires of the trombonist. It is therefore completely untrue to state that it is simply a matter of opinion as to whether, for example, a fourth trombonist uses a bass or a contrabass trombone to play a part conceived and written for the contrabass trombone. BassBoneJoe: After speaking to Mr. Norrell recently, he does not enjoy the sound quality of the contrabass trombones he has heard, so he plays the Ring on a bass trombone because he can, and it sounds great. It all boils down to opinion from here. Now we are getting to the crux of the matter! We have finally arrived at what I think is the main point in your argument, which is that it is Steve Norrell's personal opinion of the contrabass trombones he has heard which dictates his performance choice. However, as I have already stated, it is completely untrue and unfair to make sweeping statements about all bass trombonists who have to cover parts written for the contrabass trombone by saying that it is a simple matter of opinion, because, quite frankly, it isn't. Likewise it is also not true to state the same of people who have to cover parts for the alto trombone. Often there are factors such as the choice of the conductor, the rest of the trombone section, the history and traditions of the orchestra and the trombonist's own job description which dictate performance practice. __________________________________________ Edward Solomon British Trombone Society Webmaster webmaster@britishtrombonesociety.org http://www.britishtrombonesociety.org __________________________________________

• 10-26-2004 3:26 AM

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  dansatt Joined on 04-19-2004 Ft. Lauderdale, FL Posts 17

  Re: Steve Norell Reply Contact I think the truest statement made here is that there is not the same tradition of contra playing in the US as in Europe. Until recently, there hasn't been much widespread interest in the US in learning to play contra. This could be due to the inavailability and expense of good instruments, or to the "I can play all the low notes just fine on bass trombone" mentality. Probably a combination of both. Undoubtedly, there is a big difference in sound between bass and contra (or there SHOULD be), and my opinion is that, especially in high level professional situations, contra parts should be played on a contra if possible. Charlie Vernon has recently changed his attitude towards the contrabass trombone, and has added a Haag with Thayer valves to his arsenal. The concerto being written for him by Christian Lindberg will have a portion to be played on contrabass. As far as Steve is concerned, I don't know his present attitude towards learning to play contra. A couple of summers ago, he passed through Brevard Music Center for a visit and sat in with the weekly trombone choir. I had Charlie's contra on loan for the summer, and Steve mentioned liking the sound, but I don't think he was ready to run out and buy one! In the Ring liner notes, I think he's listed as playing "Contrabass Trombone" (incorrectly listed as Contrabass Tuba on one of the CD's) so that it will be documented that he is playing the bottom part. Last time I was at Steve's house, his instruments were as follows: Bach 50BG with custom valve section built in the early 80's by Marc L'Angelier, formerly the brass guy at Woodwind and Brass Workshop in San Francisco. Marc was one of the first "artistic" master craftsmen working on bass trombones, including different alloys for asthetic reasons, the first rosewood paddles, and all kinds of other fancy touches. He was charging around $800 for an open wrap at the time that Larry Minick was charging $400-$500. I think eight of these instruments were made, the first for Charlie Vernon when he played one year in the SFSO, and one of the last made for me in 1984. Shortly after that, Marc went to work as an accountant with a large Napa Valley winery. Bach 50 with Thayer valves which Steve likes to use for low, loud things like the end of Rheingold. This is the instrument that Steve had altered to have a springloaded F slide for use as a Bartok horn. Yamaha 613H prototype, which Steve told me he likes to use on lighter stuff, or when he plays literature with one trombone, and wants a clearer sound, like Rossini operas or Ariadne auf Naxos. Bach 50BG with L'Angelier open wrap, which I sold him in the early 90's. That was one of two instrument sales that I regret to this day! The Bachs are played with no leadpipe, and a custom-shanked Schilke mouthpiece similar to an old Bach 1G. The Yamaha is played with a very long leadpipe, and the old 1G. Personally, I'd love to hear Steve play contra. On a related subject, the Met, which has historically used tuba almost exclusively when cimbasso was indicated, has begun to use cimbasso more and more. Dan

• 11-20-2004 6:57 AM

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  UncleBeer Joined on 05-28-2004 Posts 2

  Re: Norrell Reply Contact BassBoneJoe: There are three trumpets and a bass trumpet, which sounds like a low trumpet, not a trombone. There are two tenor trombones, a bass trombone, and a contrabass trombone. Then there's a tuba, really the only instrument not in such a group. Tiny correction: Wagner commissioned the building of the Wagner tubas specifically for this purpose: to give the contrabass tuba a "family".

• 02-22-2005 5:04 AM

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  bassbonepeenut Joined on 02-22-2005 Posts 2

  Re: Steve Norell Reply Contact Hi ya'll, I've been doing a little research on Wagner performance practices recently. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that the contra part was originally played on BBb contra. They would usually have two players covering this part, a tuba player to play the BBb when the trombone was the bass in the brass choir and a bass trombone player when the tuba was the bass in the brass choir. Technically most bass trombone players are in the wrong by not playing it on BBb. The F contra does not have the same sound qualities that the BBb has. Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 9:51 pm Post subject: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Agreed, for a bass trombone it's pretty amazing, but it is very obvious to me at least that there is a bass trombone and not a contrabass trombone playing those parts due to the rather raspy sound of the pedal notes I haven't heard a recording of the cycle that didn't have some "raspy" notes in the lower trombone part. There are many parts in the cycle that are meant to played aggressively so why not just enjoy it. They wouldn't play the bass trumpet part on a trombone because of inconvenience, so why would they treat the contra part differently? The reason's are simple, 1. The performing schedual is unlike almost any opera orchestra in the world. I one week the Met will do six performances of various works. Sometimes they will do the same piece twice in a week but that is not always the case. 2. The orchestra director doesn't require it and knowing Levine he would much rather have a very clear bass part in the bottom of the trombone section. 3. Mr. Norrell sounds great on bass trombone and to me very musical. I think what is most important about the number of great recordings out there is that we understand the music and not what equipment the performers play on. --Pat

• 02-22-2005 12:21 PM

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  yeodoug Joined on 03-17-2003 Boston, Massachusetts USA Posts 310

  Re: Steve Norell Reply Contact bassbonepeenut: Hi ya'll, I've been doing a little research on Wagner performance practices recently. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that the contra part was originally played on BBb contra. They would usually have two players covering this part, a tuba player to play the BBb when the trombone was the bass in the brass choir and a bass trombone player when the tuba was the bass in the brass choir. No. The part is a doubling part for one player - a trombone player. This is one of the big misconceptions about the contrabass trombone, that it should be played by a tuba player. Wagner's contrabass trombone was in BBflat, double slide instrument. The mouthpiece was not a tuba mouthpiece but a large bass trombone mouthpiece. The BBflat contrabass is a cylindrical instrument and plays like an unwieldy large trombone; it has none of the feel of a tuba. When Georg Solti made the first complete studio recording of the Ring Cycle with the Vienna State Opera Orchestra in he 1950's, the fourth trombone part WAS split between two players - a bass trombone player and a tuba player (who played the part on a modern "cimbasso" - an instrument with no historical precedent to the instruments that were called "cimbasso" in antiquity which is more like an "F tuba on a stick"). But that is not the way the part is played in most opera houses when a contrabass trombone is used. In Bayreuth and other houses, the fourth part is played by one player - bass and contrabass trombone - usually on a contra in F rather than BB flat because it is a more stable instrument than the original construction in BB flat. We have had lengthy discussions about whether the contra in F is a "true" contra elsewhere on this forum; see this thread: http://www.basstrombone.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=811 I am of the opinion that the modern F contra is an oversized F bass trombone although given the problems with the BBflat contra, the F contra seems a sensible substitute. Like grammar, instruments change their function by usage. It may not be correct, but it is right. -Douglas Yeo Douglas Yeo Bass Trombonist, Boston Symphony Orchestra http://www.yeodoug.com